Curse

dansamy · Jun 09, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

We're not interested in seeing the rewards for PvE minimalized to keep PvP players happy.

Amen!

Sandman Uk · Jun 09, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

PvE fanboys always say there's no grind. They haven't had to farm skill points. They haven't ran 100 farming runs to unlock runes. They haven't done the true grind required to be competitive in PvP, because they don't plan to be. If you play the game purely as a PvE game, there is pretty much no grind. When you play serious PvP, there's a lot. Stop talking of what you know nothing about.

What a load of bull. I am a PVE player and dont want to play PvP. Came over from Never Winter Nights for the graphic play. I have put in 100's of hours of GRIND to unlock a few skills and runes. And still only have 3 Elite and not one Superior rune ever??? Ive completed the game above and still need to Grind out the Skills above to keep me alive in the Underworld below.

Seems the Mix between the Hardcore PVP players dont mix with the FANBOYS in PvE. I believe they should give option's for PvP to receive Elite skills from hero points earned in PvP as mentioned earlier and not have to come to PvE land to unlock them where they clearly dont want to be.

Its a fantastic game and at the moment we are all still beta testing it. We will all have thumbs up and thumbs down to updates. I give thumbs up to this one

PieXags · Jun 09, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Cheers to FluidFox for a well written and thought out original post.

Boo to the rest of you UAS/Grind discussing wanks.

PvE/PvP it doesn't matter to me. Hell, believe it or not I like to play BOTH. Wow now there's a combination we've never thought of before. Maybe I like to use my PvE characters in PvP too! Lord knows that idea's never been tossed out there.

However if you people EVER plan to enjoy the game you could always, you know, carry out your ideas in a somewhat reasonable manner. Do you really think bitching here back and fourth...for the 8th time this week is going to do anything more than you've already done? Let it rest or make a SERIOUS suggestion thread where you've thought out all your ideas instead of littering this board with that crap we've all seen a thousand times.

Either way, good post FluidFox, I'll agree with you on most all of your original points and your attempt to have a decent thread going.

Sekkira · Jun 09, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

They're making changes for the better but are accidentally going overboard in some places

I completely agree. I think many people are misinterpreting what I am saying in another topic. I am complaining about the new SoC implementation. I am saying if they keep going this way the game will be ruined. I did not say that the game is ruined, it is still far from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

PvE fanboys always say there's no grind. They haven't had to farm skill points. They haven't ran 100 farming runs to unlock runes. They haven't done the true grind required to be competitive in PvP, because they don't plan to be. If you play the game purely as a PvE game, there is pretty much no grind. When you play serious PvP, there's a lot. Stop talking of what you know nothing about.

You seem to know nothing either. I'm sure you need to use 450 skills and something around 75 runes plus every single hilt, haft, head, wrapping, string, grip pommel, etc to play PvP. Seriously, shut the hell up and get your facts straight. Make do with what you have and form a strategy around that. Hell, I entered the pvp tombs with about 2-3 skills unlocked total and was winning against teams of using the premade builds in the first few days.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 09, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

to the topic creator, its true. A-net should not listen to everything the players told them to do... it like just like that Half life mod called Natural Selection, i remember how the game was screwed because all the newbie or people that complain alot has given the team bad ideas that actually make into the game in form of the update patch. Which basically dumb down the game and made it less fun to play.

Tuna · Jun 09, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluidFox

Rule number two: The worse the idea is, the more loudly an outspoken minority will support it. (see numerous threads on this very forum for reference)

I'm pretty sure Arena Net skips loud obtrusive posts spouting ideas that are clearly not thought through. The general rule is if you want someone to read what your write you must use complete sentances, coherence, paragraphs, and sufficient support for your ideas.

JoDiamonds · Jun 09, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'm pretty sure Arena Net skips loud obtrusive posts spouting ideas that are clearly not thought through. The general rule is if you want someone to read what your write you must use complete sentances, coherence, paragraphs, and sufficient support for your ideas.

Amen.

Write clearly. Be brief. Who wants to read a super long blathering post without an line breaks?

The easier you make it for your reader, the more likely they'll listen to you at all.

That said, I applaud Arena Net for their efforts to make the game fun. It's impossible to please everyone, and it's impossible to get everything right on the first time. They continue to do their best to improve the game, and that's noble.

Bravo!

The Destroyer · Jun 09, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindare Sunstriker

The OP has good points, alas they have already been lost insofar as AN is concerned. Giving in to the minority who are whining about 'the grind' (it is patently obvious none of these players have ever endured a real grind in a game that they think GW is one) is very quickly removing the interest my partner and I have in playing.

We're not interested in seeing the rewards for PvE minimalized to keep PvP players happy.

We're not interested in seeing what time investment is required minimalized because some 13 year old (ok, ok... some 21 year old) doesn't think they should have to spend any time at the game to succeed at it.

We're not interested in having the sense of accomplishment undermined by increasing drop rates to make someone who has no interest in anything outside the arenas happy.

We've decided to stay through 20 (we're about 18 now) and hope things improve. If not, we'll be saying goodbye to Guild Wars.... if they're willing to compromise what challenge there is in the game to keep a group that doesn't care or appreciate anything but the arenas, they just aren't the game for us.

I fully agree.... My Wife and I are at the same point. If the PVE continues to suffer for the PVP then we will be moving on soon

Tactical-Dillusions · Jun 09, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycxjk

Tactical-Dillusions, that's the point. This game is not meant for one to solo. It's a team-effort type. Hence, ArenaNet is trying to take out most of the 'grind' from the game.

-----

There must be dozens of threads related to the recent patch. All I can say is that it's all perspective. Half of us love the game as it is, others see it as a becoming failure.

Go to the GW website and look at the questions and answers in support. Their very own answer states that it is for solo too.
This is a direct paste of it.

Question
Can you play Guild Wars alone, or do you need to play in a group?

Answer
Guild Wars is created to allow you to play with a group or to play on your own. It's true that some missions would most likely not be possible with just one player, but with a system of non-player characters called henchmen, you can fill out a group without other players joining your team. You can also use henchmen to enhance a team of players, if you wish. Simply choose a henchman from any of four selected professions -- or one of each -- and head out into the mission. You'll find that the henchmen are able players, and contribute towards the gameplay in meaningful ways.

So, i can play on my own, like many people do, but we must now incur the penalty of getting absolutly nothing from our travels.
I must hunt with others or with npc's to prevent it.
Hmmm, i'm sure i made the word "can" bold. Maybe it should really say "MUST play with henchmen or get no loot!"
Sorry, but until this is fixed, i will not be playing anymore and i certainly will not be buying any future expansion.
Hours played to date 496, what a waste.

Firax · Jun 09, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Well. I was going to write an rebuttal to your attitude Tactical-Dillusions, but you want to stop playing the game, then I'm happy anyways. I hope you find your perfect game somewhere else.

~Firax

Drakron · Jun 09, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I dont think the trader is going away, there is no reason for him to go away.

People still trade dyes, they offer prices under the dye trader price and trading continues ... if the rune trader goes away we go back to inflated prices because there is no alternative, you find a rune and you go by the inflated market price that ends up were we were before and why they put the trader, stopping the prices from being inflated to hell.

The issue can be storage since the same space is avaible for all characters, nothing stops me from dropping gear I find in later stages for a new character to use it and be fully outfitted from the start with a simply voyage to storage.

I dont think its fair we can have a lv8 character with 50k to spend ...

And yes, we need a audiction house to sell things, the trader exists to keep prices within a aceptable range but not as a replacement for rune trading.

I dont want to go back to 100k superior vigor runes days and removing the trader will do just that.

Ardus Shadowmane · Jun 09, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Man, is it something with my luck today, or am I finding the seedy underworld of this forum? Everywhere I've gone today, I've found threads intelligently started with points politely stated, and then the rest of the thread is filled with flames and just general rudeness.

I like this game quite a bit. In point of fact, for some reason I find myself more involved with this game than with most that I've played recently. It usually takes quite a bit to draw me in. I buy a game, play it for 15 minutes, get bored, and forget that I even own it. Now, I'm not claiming the game is perfect because it isn't. Heck, it's been out for what, all of a month or so?

Game patches soon after release are like a pendulum. A patch is released that ticks some people off, but not others. The pendulum then swing all the way over to the other side, ticking off the other half and appeasing the original complainers. This occurs over and over again as the pendulum slowly swings back and forth, gradually decreasing its arc until it comes to rest over the middle, which is where the game is generally appeasing to all.

The main reason that is so pronounced in GW is because of the razor-cut line between PvE and PvP. In other online games, it's all rolled into one game. In GW, because there is a line separating the two, you're going to get more people adamant about each side, and so the patch-pendulum (if you will) is more obviously noticed.

Things may not be seamless now, but give A.Net time. GW is a fun game overall. If you didn't agree it was a fun game, you wouldn't be here talking about it, you'd have moved on (or I suppose you just like to complain). Give it a chance to reach adulthood. I'm sure things will turn out for the best. Everyone may not end up ecstatic, but I bet we all at least end up content.

Tactical-Dillusions · Jun 09, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I don't want to stop playing, but i find pvp has extremly limited enjoyment for me and the enjoyment i had from honing my skills/resources in the wilderness to better my pve character, has now been eliminated.

I don't need to point out the problems with henchmen so i won't. As for people, i'm afraid i've seen better behaved chimps.
The people i've met seem to think "let me pull this target, wait here" means "rush in like a fool so all the scarabs jump out of the ground and kill us both".

Oh yeah, scarabs. Another foul up.

So lets say i went along with the idea of playing with no loot, right? How would a person survive an attack by several scarabs of level 20+ that just break every enchantment which is keeping you alive and drain health/energy faster than it's possible to replace it? They never used to do that.
What's the point in having enchantments in the first place? Now those skills are pretty meaninless, just like half of the cloned skills we already have.

I pray that arenanet didn't mean to upet myself and others who play solo. I pray that they see this post and the others by other people.
I hope it's nothing more than an oversight and they soon implement a new option in character creation where unlocked items etc are not transferrable to pvp or something. Maybe they will make dropped items instantly customised to the person who found them? Who knows?

I love GW and i hope this "fix" gets fixed. For the first time in a month...i'm totally bored. No attitude intended, just pretty ticked off.

EDIT - ARDUS, i like your post, it's pretty comforting in truth.

ArenaNet, let me play solo again, please. Find a way

Mayar third Keeper · Jun 09, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluidFox

Anet is in a bit of a tough spot here. On one hand, they have pretty much established that they are the most responsive developer team in the history of online games... On the other, now they have to try to live up to it.

Let me begin this by stating a basic rule of human nature. One person can be enlightened and intelligent and generally be on the ball.. People in groups however are complete idiots. The more people you get in a room, the lower the collective IQ. You would think that the effect would be quite the opposite, but trust me... that isn't the case. On the internet, that effect is generally twice as pronounced.

Rule number two: The worse the idea is, the more loudly an outspoken minority will support it. (see numerous threads on this very forum for reference)

Rule Number Three: The definition of a compromise (the way I see it) is a solution to a problem in which nobody is truly happy, but the maximum number of people are shut up.

This thread is written in the hope that maybe somebody from Anet will stumble across it and take it to heart.

Don't try to appease the avid (but often misguided) masses of Guild Wars Fans.

Don't let a bad idea get into the game just because there is a very vocal minority clamoring for it.

Don't compromise

This is a hell of a game, and I've thought so for the past two years while I watched it evolve. I would hate to see it warped away from its origional purity just because some people can never be happy.

If anyone thinks i'm out of line, go ahead and let yourself be heard. But remember that Gwen hates flame threads and will hurt you if you turn this into one.

*sign* ur right!

Nash · Jun 10, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

You seem to know nothing either. I'm sure you need to use 450 skills and something around 75 runes plus every single hilt, haft, head, wrapping, string, grip pommel, etc to play PvP. Seriously, shut the hell up and get your facts straight. Make do with what you have and form a strategy around that. Hell, I entered the pvp tombs with about 2-3 skills unlocked total and was winning against teams of using the premade builds in the first few days.

No, I will not. I'm not a scrub, I like to win, and I know what it takes to really be competitive.

Your "I could win even though I only had..." stories mean nothing, study some logic.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/hasty.php

Ardus Shadowmane · Jun 10, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I don't agree with the lack of any modicum of politeness in Sekkira's post, and I have no evidence to prove or disprove that comment.

However, I don't understand what linking to a site with the definition of a hasty generalization has to do with that comment at all. There wasn't a hasty generalization there; it was an unproven claim.

FluidFox · Jun 10, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Lets not argue semantics.

I think we've adressed the problem well enough and from enough angles and viewpoints to fairly represent the gaming community at large. 90% of the people who posted on this thread can at least agree that something needs to be fixed. How about proposing some solutions. (solutions that are not UAS or Unlock all runes etc)

Here are mine to get the ball rolling.

Allow Skill capture from the very beginning and balance it so that you can capture several elites by the time you get to Lion's Arch
Make a few of the harder quests Unlock elite skills
Balance the rune drop table so that superiors are rare but not as stupidly rare as they are now.
Add rune rewards for PvP and allow people who hold the HOH to unlock a random rune they need.
Make skill point rewards more common and make skillpoints easier to get post-lvl20
If the elite skill capture system can't be fixed, scrap it and go back to the beta system.

Now some people may say that all these suggestions cater to lazy people... but it really wouldn't work out that way. It would just reduce the grind to something like 260 hours rather than the 600-700 we're looking at right now to get everything unlocked. Anyway, those are my suggestions. Does anyone have some more to add?

FluidFox · Jun 10, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

so... let me get this straight.. I'm the only one with a couple of ideas? Come on people.

Oracle · Jun 10, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

How about some kind of 'rune capture'? Not sure if it's been suggested before, but why not. If you can soc skills, why not runes. It could work similar to SoC but cap a rune from the boss instead of a skill.

Personally, I never had a problem with the soc skills issue anyway, it's just the rune issue I've been peeved about.